Date   : Tue, 04 Apr 2006 09:48:30 +0100
From   : Andy Armstrong <andy@...>
Subject: Re: Basic & BBC Basic

On 3 Apr 2006, at 23:10, Jules Richardson wrote:
>> I really don't like C++ - it feels as if it's stolen the worst  
>> aspects of the languages that have influenced it. Objective C is  
>> nice but it's hard to do anything useful with it unless you're  
>> developing for Mac OS. Actually ObjC + Cocoa is lovely.
>
> That's a problem - the 'best' languages tend to be the niche ones  
> that just aren't widely available on all platforms :-(

Oh, I dunno - I'd say the most powerful languages tend to be free and  
cross platform. ObjC is available anywhere GCC runs.

Cocoa is Apple's evolution of NextStep and is effectively part of Mac  
OS - so that's not cross platform. OpenStep (the GNU version) /is/  
cross platform but not as complete.

> Hmm, maybe so. I've always been involved with 'cutting edge' type  
> work, so maybe it's just been more obvious there how brainwashed a  
> lot of grads are.

It would be I imagine :)

> These days though I'm getting the impression that all the courses  
> are about specifics - not because that's what the industry needs,  
> but because that's what gets more wannabe IT 'professionals'  
> through the course with good grades. Specifics are much easier to  
> spoon-feed to people with good results - it's just killing the  
> industry when these people get out into the real world.

Yes. I suspect it's not so much killing the industry as transforming  
it into something we won't like as much. If you want to escape find  
or initiate a nice open source project - the best ones produce  
thrillingly beautiful code. Even there you find odd gaps in people's  
understanding - stuff that was common knowledge 20 years ago but  
which evidently isn't taught any more. The difference is that when  
you explain it they either get it straight away or ask intelligent  
questions until they do.

> Yep, I agree. Mentoring works really well, particularly when it's  
> informal. Never been one for courses much myself as everyone  
> naturally works at their own speed and courses tend to force  
> everyone to work at the same pace.

Apropos of this if anyone's looking for a really brain stretching  
book I heartily recommend Higher Order Perl: http://hop.perl.plover.com/

   "Higher-Order Perl is about functional programming techniques in  
Perl. It's about how to write
    functions that can modify and manufacture other functions.

>> Same here. Of course there's may be an element of us just being  
>> grizzled old curmudgeons who remember when every byte was sacred  
>> and haven't quite adapted to just how ludicrously cheap once  
>> scarce resources now are.
>
> :-)
>
> But 'ludicrously cheap' tends to be a misleading thing given the  
> resources that go into making stuff or the cost in human labour to  
> do so. It's only the end user that tends to see a saving, whereas  
> someone or some thing always seems to suffer behind the scenes. I'd  
> much rather see more effort going into repairing and reusing what  
> we have than into making ever-cheaper (for the consumer) stuff. Not  
> just computers, but all consumer products.

Does anyone here subscribe to Make Magazine? http://makezine.com/

It's all about recycling and repurposing old stuff - everything from  
DIY rocketry to embroidery via circuit bending old synths and  
motorising shopping trollies.


-- 
Andy Armstrong, hexten.net